SciComm Conversations: “Engaging young people with green jobs”
Listen to “Engaging young people with green jobs. Guest: Dr Laura Fogg-Rogers” on Spreaker.
Transcript
Achintya Rao [00:09]: Welcome to SciComm Conversations. My name is Achintya Rao. I am the Communications and Engagement Manager for COALESCE and your host for today’s episode. This is our second season of the podcast and this time we are speaking with science-communication researchers about their work. All of our guests in this season presented their research at the Public Communication of Science and Technology conference, which took place this May in Aberdeen in the UK. Our first guest is Dr Laura Fogg-Rogers from the University of the West of England, in Bristol. I spoke to Laura about the Curiosity Connections Green Futures project. You can learn about the project by visiting curiosityconnections.net.
Laura Fogg-Rogers [00:51]: Hello, I’m Dr Laura Fogg-Rogers. I ’m Associate Professor for Engineering and Society here at the University of the West of England, or UWE Bristol, and I look at the people side of technology. So, how people relate to technology, what they think about it, how we design new technology, and also policies for that, so how people can have their say in democracy.
AR [01:16]: Welcome Laura. It’s really nice to actually do one of these podcast interviews in person as opposed to over the internet. So we’re going to be discussing a recent paper of yours on today’s episode. But first can you tell our listeners about the Curiosity Connections Green Futures project?
LFR [01:32]: Certainly, yeah. So Curiosity Connections is a network we run in the west of England. It’s for inspirational, primary science education. So we’re supporting teachers, communicators, educators to support children to meet diverse role models, to find out more about science, the environment and engineering in their lives, and to help more diverse pupils carry on into STEM careers and pathways, because primary schools are really important age to form perceptions. And one really great project we’ve got to know is the Green Futures project. So we’re looking at “green jobs” role models. So these are men, women and others in diverse jobs and from diverse backgrounds that are helping the environment. And the definition of a green job is one that can reduce emissions, so helping with climate change, reduce carbon footprints, so thinking about the ways that emissions are also developed through other means, other greenhouse gases as well, and help the environment, so thinking about nature as well.
AR [02:45]: So we’re going to be talking in a little while about specifically primary schools and why that’s important, but let’s jump into talking about your paper, which is titled “Careers education on green jobs as a route to transformative change and sustainability in schools”, which is a mouthful, but a really nice mouthful, and you mentioned earlier to me that it’s currently under review. Can you summarise your research for us?
LFR [03:06]: Sure, so a lot of what we do is we try to communicate about climate change to young people, but just telling people the facts about climate change is pretty scary. The facts are pretty dire at the moment about emissions increases and the lack of mitigation to reduce those. And particularly for young people, there’s a lot of ethical issues around that: Do we tell them that’s their future? How do we communicate that? Do we do it in science lessons? Do we do it in other lessons where they may be able to make a difference? And so our research has been looking at a positive and hopeful way we can do that through careers in the curriculum. So all schools have to cover potential future careers that young people will go on to.
And there’s a real boom at the moment of green jobs, which I explained, reduce emissions, help the environment. And that’s actually, therefore, a really great opportunity for young people that they can go into their future lives, earn good money in a lot of these jobs, and be making a massive difference to reducing emissions, and also adaptation, which means coping with any weather changes that we have to come as well. So therefore, it’s a great way to integrate it right across the curriculum from art, French, religious studies, through to science, geography, maths, sort of the more traditional areas [where] we might cover climate change. And focus on action projects where the young people can actually do something in their schools. So they can start right away making a difference in their school grounds or in their canteen. But in the future, there’s actual jobs in that as well.
AR [04:42]: So in your research, you focus on something that is known as education for sustainable development. Can you tell our listeners a bit more about this and how it relates perhaps to the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals?
LFR [04:53]: Exactly. So it’s exactly that. So the UN Sustainable Development Goals were brought out aiming towards 2030, which is only five years away, that we would achieve 17 goals that are not just… they do focus on the environment, so they focus on life underwater, life on land, pollution, emissions, etc. But more than that, because there’s a recognition that to have a healthy, functioning environment, we need healthy, functioning people, and we need a healthy, functioning economy as well to provide a living for people so that people aren’t in poverty or hunger. And maybe as a side effect of that causing environmental issues, we need things in balance. So these 17 goals go right across that spectrum of environment, society and the economy.
And so education for sustainable development is looking at how we can help young people right through from primary school, secondary school through to universities, how can we educate them on that area? And change perspectives, a lot of it’s about systemic thinking. So understanding we live in a system, we are a system, and we need all of that in balance and working together to make a difference to, yes, reduce carbon emissions, but more than that, ensure that we don’t harm people’s livelihoods or that certain people are disadvantaged and so on. What’s known as a just transition. So working towards net zero but making sure it’s fair along the way.
AR [06:29]: And you’ve sort of mentioned a bit earlier about the fact that some of the research focuses on primary schools and on youth. Is there a particular reason for focusing on youth and younger people in general?
LFR [06:40]: Certainly, yes. So for us, I work in the School of Engineering. We’ve got a focus on diversity in STEM, so thinking about more women coming into STEM, also people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds or people from ethnic minorities as well, so underrepresented in science careers. So primary schools are a really important place to work on that because that’s where our perceptions of who does what comes from. So it’s really formed quite early, like ages six to nine. And of course by age 11 you’re going to secondary school. By age 14 you’ve already set your path really because that’s where you decide your GCSEs [in the UK]. So raising awareness of different career routes, different role models, different people is important to do it younger.
Secondly, we do work in secondary schools and that’s because again they are really forming their career pathways then. And it’s important to widen those horizons so that they can choose different options. And also it’s where our behaviours and habits often are set. So it’s kind of thinking about learning how to take the bus or how to cycle, how to walk and a myriad of other behaviours as well. So that when young people go off into adult life, they’ve got that… they’ve got the awareness, skills, knowledge, behaviours that they can take forward for sustainable lifestyles. And also other research has shown that young people are influencers. So obviously young people go home at the end of the day from school and they influence their family and their communities. And you know it’s quite a bit trite but thinking about “they are the future” as well. So it’s their futures who we’re talking about when we’re talking about 2030/2050. They will be the adults of tomorrow who are living through this. We have a duty to make their future a good one.
AR [08:31]: Yeah, ’cause yeah, the other ones are going to have to deal with the consequences a lot more than we are. And they don’t have much of a say in how these decisions are being made right now but hopefully we can get them thinking about these things at an early stage. Integrating this education for sustainable development into curricula seems like an important thing. It sounds also like a fascinating thing. But is it easy? What are the challenges that one encounters when attempting to do something like this?
LFR [08:59]: Absolutely, and that’s really what our paper explores. So [in] the paper we work with three secondary schools who are all part of an academy in the west of England. And we looked at how easy is it to integrate this into schools. And the answer is there are lots of challenges. Because… I can kind of go through those now. So firstly it’s curriculum. So curriculum is really packed for schools these days so they have kind of set things they need to cover, set knowledge they need to get across. And also set achievements they need to kind of get the young people to reach. And if your content or knowledge does not fit into that curriculum, it’s not going in. So we have to make sure that sustainable development climate change sustainability are connected to what’s already on the curriculum. And that’s why there’s currently a curriculum review underway. That’s why that’s so interesting for so many people in sustainability, ’cause it’s a chance to make sure it’s in there for the future.
Meanwhile what we had to do is connect it to topics that are already under there. And we had to think discipline specific as well. So how does this relate to geography? How does it relate to science? How does it relate to English or French or religious studies came up as well around citizenship and kind of festivals and that kind of thing. So it has to connect to what’s already there to make teachers’ lives easier so that they can fit it in. The next big one would be sort of school infrastructure, if you like. So thinking about how schools deliver topics. So again they have very packed lesson timings and what they have to deliver when in the year. So what we were delivering, we ran kind of eco weeks and eco days and activities focused on careers and also action within the school. We had to plan for a long time to make sure it fit within you know useful points of the year and that could be addressed in different lessons and tutor times as well.
And that put a lot of onus on the teachers to work with the school leadership as well. So that would be another big one is embedding it within school strategic goals and related to their values and actions that they’re taking forward. And a lot of schools though do place high value on citizenship and you know being kind to the citizen body and to the world around us. And also to addressing careers as well. So where are what are young people’s next steps after school and that’s why we found green jobs a great way to talk about all this stuff because it really does connect to what schools need to deliver, which is careers and experiences with the workplace, experiences with real people in careers. And experiences with higher education as well, it’s called the Gatsby Benchmarks that they have to meet. So by kind of meeting those goals, it meant that we could address these issues in schools. And the paper talks about a flower model of a transformative change. So it’s kind of going from the seeds, which is this information and things needed. The stems, which are the school structures to enable all of this to happen, and the flowers are the young people blooming – we hope! – in the future.
AR [12:15]: You’ve given a few examples of disciplines that you’ve addressed, ranging from engineering to religion and so forth. Can you give an example of some of the jobs… I mean, we’re going to talk a little bit about the methodology and how you approach this research. But can you give an example of some of the jobs? Because I noticed that when I looked up the website that there are jobs in like sports and event management and all of these fairly diverse areas.
LFR [12:38]: Yeah exactly. We really wanted to keep that diversity in green jobs and not just have them as the STEM jobs, which you know are classically… you know wind-turbine engineer or a heat-pump installation or an electric-car designer, really vital jobs, really important technologies. But our research with young people shows that that only appeals to the people who are already interested in kind of science and engineering jobs. So if you want to reach wider young people with this you have to connect to what they’re currently interested in, which a lot of it is football or going to music or art or kind of their daily cultural lives and communities and things. So we really reached out to find these diverse jobs and, yes, our most popular one probably is the football-sustainability manager and who’s making Ashton Gate more sustainable, thinking about the energy use of the stadium or how fans are getting there and that kind of thing.
Another one that comes up as really popular is an artist, so an artist who is inspired by nature uses nature designs lots of curves and ferns and that kind of thing, to decorate street art areas and links to the Islamic faith as well around those kind of curves and shapes in life and so on. And other ones would be we’ve got lots around citizenship and communities, so making communities more sustainable and also thinking about their development so that people aren’t cold, hungry, have good jobs etc. And lots of nature jobs as well so classic ones of you know working with food and soil, but one that kind of a lot of the young people of is a graveyard manager. So someone who’s working with graveyards but making sure it’s thriving with bees and butterflies and animals as well. And they’re the ones that do seem to really connect with young people and change their minds about what they could be doing, with a passion that they have but that helps the planet as well.
AR [14:34]: That’s quite an interesting range and is really nice to see how much efforts gone into thinking about the different ways in which you know all kinds of jobs can have a positive impact on the environment and our futures. Let’s jump into the details of your research paper now. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about the methods that you adopted in your research?
LFR [14:53]: So working with young people… you know it’s the same saying in film, isn’t it? “Never work with young people or animals.” It’s kind of the same in research, so working with young people is a lot more complicated than with other population groups because they’re what’s known as vulnerable populations. So our safeguarding and ethics had to be very tight to ensure that we could gather data with young people. We worked on kind of several layers of data collection. And I’m a mixed methods researcher so I like to do both quantitative and qualitative. So quantitative means we gather numbers on how many people and changes in perceptions, percentages, that kind of thing, but also qualitative, so actual words and feedback from people. So we did that with teachers. So we got their feedback to a questionnaire, which is where they gave a lot of these curriculum links about kind of how they’ve connected sustainability into their curricula, and interviews as well with the teachers so we could find out what worked, what didn’t, what would we improve for the future.
And then we did that as well with the young people, so we had ethics through sending it home… so we have to send home permissions to parents. So parents know that we’re going in schools, they know that this feedback’s happening. Young people then submitted anonymous survey feedback about what they thought about it and any changes in perceptions they had. And then finally we did focus groups with young people as well so these were eco clubs and so a lot of schools now are eco schools, which is a national scheme where they sign up to ten goals around making their schools more sustainable. And these eco clubs are the student voice who give feedback on that and kinda of help shape the direction where it goes. So for those students we had to get specific signed permission from parents and them for them to give us their feedback.
And that’s where we got so much valuable information about things like we need to engage with what young people are already interested in and connect to their interests and role models and desires as well to change perceptions with it. And also a lot of information about the barriers in schools already. For instance one school wanted to remove plastic plates from the canteen. So all the… every lunchtime thousands of kids would go in and have plastic plates and plastic cutlery, which as someone who works in kind of waste and repair makes me cry a bit, all that waste every lunchtime. And it made the eco club cry as well but they were having a lot of difficulty changing it, because the catering company was an external company and not directly controlled by the school. So it was then a lot of work for them and this is what we discussed in the focus group and onwards. They worked with the school after our eco days to lobby and champion and use their voice and that’s now changed, and the disposable cutlery and plates are gone and they have more sustainable methods of eating every single day.
So yeah, just these changes can be so complicated to get through you know red tape and paper and systems and that kind of thing. And it’s giving young people that empowerment and advocacy that they can do this, and in later life there are whole roles in this as well of lobbying and advocacy as well.
AR [18:16]: How did you go about introducing all of these interesting green jobs to the students themselves? What was the approach that you took to show them the options that were available and have conversations around them?
LFR [18:26]: Sure, so as I said we wanted to introduce it through careers in the curriculum and so we did that initially in the three pilot schools we worked with through eco days and eco weeks. So it was sort of a series of linked lessons plus a careers fair. So we started with what we called a sustainability solutions summit. So we presented the challenges across the west of England that need to be reached for net zero 2030 across transport, waste and energy. And then we asked the young people in their… we worked in science lessons and tutor-group lessons to think about, well, how could we do it in the real world and also how can they do it in their school as well. And they thought through the processes using the design-thinking cycle that we use in engineering, how this might happen.
And then we had careers fairs, which is where the green jobs were really introduced, with lots of different stands from local employers showing kind of what they’re doing about the environment and how they’re helping. And that was… it depended where the school was, so it was a bit ad hoc with our pilot schools. But as I said we got feedback from the students, teachers and particularly the eco clubs about how to take this forward. And that led to us developing a card pack. So we now have a green-jobs card pack, with 48 role models from across the west of England and they’re the jobs ranging from football to music to arts to the graveyard keeper as well. And that means that you can engage with it on so many different levels. So at primary school level it could just be a “top trumps” card game, so pretty pictures and numbers that you can trade with each other. For all the while it’s awareness of all the different people and jobs that are out there. In secondary school, we then take it forward and we actually ask them to look at their career profiles, how did they get that job, what skills did they need, what skills do the young people have as well, and how they could relate them to a job in the future.
And that’s the way we’re taking it forward now. We’re delivering in schools across the west of England and we need to reach thousands of young people as part of our project. And it is those 48 role models that are showcasing, yeah, diverse career routes, diverse people, diverse jobs as well, to change perceptions of who does green jobs, who can get these jobs, and how you get jobs as well. Lots isn’t known about do you do work experience, do you do apprenticeships, do you go to university, do you volunteer as well, and all of that’s coming through in these career-pathway stories as well.
AR [21:05]: And those cards… ’cause I have seen them and there’s more information on the website as well. These aren’t just sort of ones that you have created profiles based on sort of certain conditions and the diversity of jobs and people and backgrounds. These are actual real people and you can go and read about them and their profiles and their career trajectories as well. So it gives the students a little bit of… sort of grounds it in real examples.
LFR [21:30]: Yeah exactly. So, my research background’s actually social psychology. So it’s all about what’s called “social cognitive theory”, which is this idea of a vicarious experience, so we learn not just from our individual experience but from what we see others do who we think is like us, so people like me, me being whoever you are. And how we relate to people, how we see them treated as well. So that’s why these role models are super important. They feature people from different ethnic backgrounds, socioeconomic backgrounds, career pathways, so that hopefully there’s someone in there for everyone that they can identify with, and showcase those different routes in.
And as you say those role models are on our website as well. So on the cards they are… there are funny cartoons, some of them are not that accurate. [laughs] They do look a bit funny but that gets the kids talking. And it’s so… as I say, you can engage with it just as a card game or there is material there that people can then engage with, looking at these real stories of how people got there. And because it’s a card game we’ve divided all the cards into 12 families. So if you think back to when you played card games, you know, first card games are often in like “top trump” families and that kind of thing. So there’s 12 families and they range from food, nature, water, waste, energy etc. So it really covers this breadth of green jobs that are out there.
AR [23:02]: You mentioned a bit earlier about studying whether attitudes had shifted after these many interventions that you’ve had in these schools. And so the question that I have for you is, did you see a shift in attitudes among the students? Was it positive, the shift?
LFR [23:14]: With research there’s always kind of like short-term shift and long-term shift, what’s called longitudinal research. So we do see short-term shift, which is fantastic. So after our session young people say that they have more awareness of green jobs, they’re more likely to pursue information about green jobs, and they feel more positive about the future of the planet as well, which is really important for me, you know, giving hope to young people. What we don’t know is… there’s lots of discussion in research about do attitudes actually lead to behaviour change. And [there’s] lots of conflicting evidence around that… So we don’t know if then young people actually will in five years time go on to go and get a green job but we do know that there’s so many influences on young people’s lives, I think it can’t hurt. The more knowledge and information they have and awareness of people and jobs, the more they are ready to go and kind of take on the world. So we hope it has a long-term impact as well.
It definitely changes the story in schools as well from instead of climate change being a fact-based thing of you know, “We’ve had the hottest year on record,” and “Emissions targets are not where they need to be,” it moves from that through to, “Look at the action we can take,” “Look at the difference we can make,” and “Look at these real people who are actually doing that right now,” which I think is a really hopeful story for teachers and for young people as well.
AR [24:44]: Earlier we spoke a bit about the challenges of integrating something like education for sustainable development into curricula. Can you go into details of some of the solutions? You mentioned a few of them in terms of addressing the curriculum review and things like that. But can you talk a little bit more about some of the solutions that you have identified as part of your research?
LFR [25:04]: Absolutely. So I think we have a lot of passionate teachers in schools who are making such a difference for their classes but what they report is if they feel kind of they’re going it alone against the system, that’s really difficult. So I think it has to start with that infrastructure and culture change. So that means in schools it comes from the top, so leadership is really important: the head teachers and other systems put in place to enable this change to happen in schools. The schools that we’re working with… we’re working with some academy chains and it’s very much embedded there, which is fantastic. So they are working… either are or working towards being eco schools, which is a whole way of addressing this throughout the school. The leadership is very keen on this as I say partly as citizenship, partly as future hopeful jobs for young people as well. And then having that support and systems in place means that individual teachers are supported to embed this in their curricula, connecting it to the topics that are already on there. And putting in place these real examples of jobs and people. Which they have to anyway, as they have to meet Gatsby benchmarks for careers opportunities, but what careers are offered is a different question. And this is a great way to sort of meet that in a way that helps people and planet as well.
And then as I say everything would be a lot easier if also it was embedded in the curricula and just had to be taught, instead of finding ways around it. And that’s where the curriculum review at the moment… there’s a lot of policy work advocacy underway. Groups like Global Action Plan and lots of others [are] lobbying the government to actually address the issues for today. So we are already seeing climate-change impacts in communities: flooding, heat waves, food shortages, cost-of-living crisis because of energy rises and so on. So addressing that for today but very much for the future as well. We’re producing tomorrow’s citizens who will need to be in the real world, A, adapting to climate change impacts; B, mitigating to try and reduce future impacts as well. And we need to ensure that we produce young people from our schools who are ready to deal with that in their communities and feel enabled and empowered to make a difference as well. So lots of work about that coming up.
AR [27:32]: Is there any future research on this particular project that you and your team are pursuing?
LFR [27:37]: Yeah, absolutely. We’re currently rolling out these “top trump” card packs in schools and doing more research about those impacts and awareness. So what difference does it make to young people learning about green jobs and the differences they can make in their schools. And then I talked about long-term change as well. So we will be monitoring that across schools as well, about seeing how that is rolled out. And also policy work. So we’re working with our regional and local councils to look at how we can support skills for green jobs. So a lot of these changes are happening right now in industries.
For instance, nine out of ten homes currently have gas boilers. We need to get off gas in some form or another. So that means we need people who can go and work in homes, who can design new systems, who can make the retrofit changes that are needed, and those skills are in really short supply. So as well as young people, we’re actually looking at people career transitioning. So coming in from further education or maybe learning on the job, new things as well. And maybe even later life, coming in from a completely different career route and moving in as well. So thinking about those lifelong learning pathways as well for skills to green jobs and changing that as well.
AR [28:54]: Laura, thank you very much for joining us on this episode of SciComm Conversations.
LFR [28:58]: Thank you for having me.
This episode was edited by Sneha Uplekar. Find out more about Sneha’s work on her website, microdragons.co.uk.
Music for SciComm Conversations is by Brodie Goodall. Follow Brodie on Instagram at “therealchangeling” or find them on LinkedIn.
SciComm Conversations is released under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 licence.
The COALESCE project is funded by the European Union to establish the European Competence Centre for Science Communication.
Views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the guests only and do not necessarily reflect those of COALESCE or of the European Union.
